Swiss Bank Accounts for Americans: What FATCA Killed and What Survived

Mark Pierce 0:00 One of the more interesting issues that we're facing here in the United States right now, we have a tendency to view our currency as being a dominant currency that has begun to seriously erode over the last several years because of our inability to manage our fares correctly here.

SPEAKER_00 0:14 Back in the 1970s, one US dollar was equivalent to four and a half Swiss francs. Today, one US dollar is around 0.8 Swiss francs. So that's an over 80% devaluation. We're not advocating for going into one currency and one currency only. Having exposure to different currencies and different asset classes and different jurisdictions, it really mitigates all these risks. It might not be completely avoidable, but at least you're mitigating that risk by having exposure to different currencies and asset classes.

Maggie Pierce 0:46 This is Keep What You've Built. Every week I sit down with my dad, attorney Mark Pierce, and we break down the asset protection strategies nobody talks about publicly. Today, we're joined by Michael Donov. Michael is a private banking advisor based in Zurich, Switzerland, and a U.S. qualified attorney admitted to practice in New York and Washington. He advises high net worth and ultra-high net worth individuals on asset protection strategies, wealth preservation, and global wealth management solutions. If you're a U.S. business owner or entrepreneur with meaningful assets, especially if you're thinking about diversifying beyond the U.S., this episode is for you. Uh Michael and Mark, how are you two doing today?

unknown 1:25 Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:25 Very good. Thank you.

Maggie Pierce 1:28 Great. And it is great to have you here, Michael. Before we jump into the meat of the video, uh, would you give a little introduction about who you are and what you do?

SPEAKER_00 1:38 Sure, absolutely. Well, first of all, thank you for having me on your podcast. Uh, my name is Michael Doniff. I'm a private banking advisor with BFI Infinity in Zurich, Switzerland, and also an attorney admitted to practice in a few states in the US.

SPEAKER_03 1:56 How did you get into Swiss banking?

SPEAKER_00 1:59 So after I graduated law school, I started practicing in the area of uh public interest international law. I worked for intergovernmental organizations, uh, which brought me to Europe. Not long after that, I switched into private interest international law, private client services, data privacy, and banking. I worked as an in-house lawyer for an international company, and then also as an attorney for a large US law firm with presence in Switzerland. Before I decided to make the switch into a client-facing private banking advisory role, which is what I currently do.

Maggie Pierce 2:34 What type of client do you typically work with who's suited well for your services?

SPEAKER_00 2:39 My typical clients are American business owners and entrepreneurs who have built successful businesses over a long period of time and hard work for many years, and are now looking to protect their wealth and legacy. Swiss private banking is not what the media makes it sound like, meaning it's not for the ultra-wealthy or for the James Bondian type of characters. It's really for the entrepreneurs, for the business owners, uh, for people who have built something and want to protect it, want to have long-term capital preservation and uh create a legacy for the future generations. Those are my typical clients.

Maggie Pierce 3:22 And just so we're defining terms so everybody's on the same page, when you say ultra wealthy versus just wealthy versus the uh business owners that you typically work with, what are the net worth ranges that you mean when you say that?

SPEAKER_00 3:36 It's very subjective and it's it's a great question. And there's not exactly a number here that I can provide you with, but what I would like to say is if you know if you have over a million dollars in liquid assets or total net worth being around four to five million dollar mark, you are a perfect candidate for a Swiss private bank account and uh global wealth management services that we offer.

Maggie Pierce 4:03 Okay, so you spoke a little bit about some of the misconceptions that people have around Swiss banking just being for the ultra-wealthy. I know another thing that comes to mind is people being suspicious and trying to hide assets and doing illegal things. Um, can you talk a little bit to that and yeah, just that misconception?

SPEAKER_00 4:22 Sure. Um and I think what you're referring here is actually from a legal standpoint, the the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act and what happened before FATCA uh came around and how the the environment uh when it comes to offshore banking and specifically Swiss private banking changed. So FATCA, again, the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act came came well is it was enacted in 2010 and uh enforcement and phase in began in 2014 onwards. But before 2010, Swiss banking secrecy was still the default mental model that most Americans have when it came to Swiss banking, right? Which meant numbered account, nobody asks questions. However, that world has already started eroding in 2009, which was around the time of the UBS settlement with the DOJ. But the passage of the act, the passage of FATCA in 2020 2010, and the again the subsequent phase in after 2014 is what formalized the new reality of Swiss banking. So before FATCA, US person could just open an offshore account with little to no reporting back to the IRS. And in those days, enforcement uh relied on the taxpayers' self-reporting, which many didn't really do, as you can imagine. After FATCA, uh, every participating foreign financial institution, not just Switzerland, but virtually all Swiss private banks, decided to participate. Every financial institution has to identify US persons among their account holders and report account balances, income, and personal identifying personal information back to the IRS. So, in practical uh terms, the change is that secrecy is dead post FATCA, but legal and transparent, Swiss banking is very much alive. In fact, the Swiss banking sector manages over 20% of the world's cross-border privately held asset assets, which is a staggering number.

Maggie Pierce 6:31 Wow. So uh can you walk me through some of the benefits for Americans in having a Swiss account? Uh obviously, we talked about secrecy being dead, but beyond that, why is it beneficial to get into Swiss banking?

SPEAKER_00 6:45 Yeah. So obviously, yes, not for secrecy, because that's gone, and honestly, uh, it's not what our clients are after. Swiss private banking is about, if I have to summarize and really simplify it, about four things. Number one is the jurisdictional diversification, number two is the asset protection optimization, number three is the institutional stability, and number four is the currency and the asset class access that one can get in Switzerland. And Switzerland is a country has centuries of political neutrality, very strong rule of law, and a currency that's been historically known as a safe haven. And the banking sector is all built around the wealth preservation rather than if we have to compare it to the United States, uh, retail banking cross-sells. So for an American with a total net worth of let's say five million US dollars holding everything, and that includes bank accounts, brokerage, real estate exposure, precious metals, even the trust that governs it all inside one country and one currency is in and of itself a concentration risk. So Swiss private banking is a way to diversify where your wealth sits and not just what you're invested in.

Maggie Pierce 8:10 Okay, um, can you talk a little bit more about jurisdictional diversification and what it means and why that matters?

SPEAKER_00 8:17 Yes. So jurisdictional diversification means not having all your legal, custodial, and currency exposure sitting in one single government's authority. So most people spend a lot of time diversifying across across asset classes, like bonds, equities, uh, real estate, private equity, precious metals, but they don't necessarily spend enough time diversifying across jurisdictions. But the jurisdiction is really what determines which courts, which regulators, and which political and fiscal decisions are affecting your wealth. So when we talk about jurisdictional diversification, we have a few risks that we're trying to mitigate through that. Uh first and foremost is the political and currency risk, right? So we know the US has uh has run a large deficit and the dollar's dominance have we have seen to deteriorate over the past 50 years, and especially against the Swiss franc. Back in the 1970s, uh one US dollar was equivalent to four and a half Swiss francs. Today one US dollar is around 0.8 Swiss francs. So that's an over 80% devaluation. So without the jurisdictional diversification, you can say that you've lost about 80% net worth because you're just using one single currency. So not only the political and the currency risks, but also the banking system risk, right? So that I call that the counterparty risk. Concentration in a small number of large banks, as we all know in the US, and in 2023, we saw the original bank stress, which was a good reminder that counterparty risk is real and you have to be aware of it, and you have to diversify across different counterparties. And of course, the final piece of uh the I guess the jurisdictional diversification puzzle is the legal risk. And here we're talking about litigation, creditor claims, and also future regulatory changes affecting a single jurisdiction. So really spreading custody across two stable, unrelated jurisdictions, both the US and Switzerland, it doesn't quite eliminate any of those risks, but it mitigates them. And that's the best one can do mitigating those risks. It means that no single government or no one single institution has the total control over your entire balance sheet, and that's really very important to know.

Mark Pierce 10:52 I have one question in particular because I think it's one of the more interesting issues that we're facing here in the United States right now. We have a tendency to view our currency as being a dominant currency, as being the trading mechanism on a worldwide basis. That has begun to seriously erode over the last several years because of our inability to manage our fares correctly here, meaning that you had a horrific depreciation rate vis-a-visa Swiss franc going from four and a half francs to 0.8 francs in a 50-year period. That's a denegation of value that's just incomprehensible. In addition, given some of the political actions that we've taken here over the last two years, you've seen nation states gravitating away from the US dollar as a trading mechanism, and that continues to be a severe pressure. So I agree with Michael that being able to diversify your currency risk across borders over the next several years is going to be of paramount importance, if not the most important criteria that you take into effect. Would you agree or disagree? Or do you have something to add to that?

SPEAKER_00 12:03 No, I absolutely agree with what you're saying. Uh and we've seen uh this tectonic shift, as I like to say, in the geopolitical relationships between countries, right? Unfortunately, we're living in a period of uh heightened uh geopolitical tensions, which is evidenced by the current wars that we see. I mean, Russia-Ukraine war is one, the Iran war is another one, trade conflicts between the US and its you know uh and its partner countries and China. So these are uh continuously increasing, and we are entering this period of again heightened and uh emphasized geopolitical tensions, but when that happens, currencies start to fluctuate, and one currency starts being a more of a safer uh investment, whereas other currencies start to devalue because countries are now thinking, why would I hold majority of my reserves in that one currency? And just to give you an example, that's what happened with Russia. At the start of the Ukraine war, the Russian assets were frozen. So Russian US dollar assets were no longer available to Russia. Now we're not talking, you know, what's right and what's wrong, but it's just that's a simple fact. So, because of that, we have a huge influx of investments towards, for example, precious metals and gold, namely. So, yes, I I definitely agree with what you're saying. So diversifying across different currencies is extremely important now than it has been the past 50 years.

Mark Pierce 13:46 Just adding one brief thing to that, you know, after the Second World War, we had the Brenton Woods Accords, and you know, it provided for stability here in the world. But uh, with the US being a denominated currency, it provided for stability within the world. But it seems to me that once we passed that $40 trillion in debt mark, and there was no plausible explanation as to how you're going to mitigate that here in the United States, that we began seeing a real gravitational force away from the US dollar as a trading mechanism. And that will could that will accelerate its erosion based on what the aspirations are, or an inability to express what the aspirations are behind the political leadership of the United States today. And I I think that that bodes against us irrespective of the political party who's in control. Would that be a worldwide view?

SPEAKER_00 14:40 I would say so, yes. I agree with that.

Mark Pierce 14:42 Yeah, I think that's right. And so, you know, you can point fingers all you want. You lost the stability aspect of your currency, so you're gonna lose the ability to finance your debt, and that's gonna result in a free fall tumble. So if you had a million dollars in the United States today, just simply sending it to Switzerland and denominating it in the Swiss franc would be well behoove you over a period of time. It's a fairly short period of time, the way things are going, I would think.

SPEAKER_00 15:09 Absolutely. And again, we're not we're not advocating uh for going into one currency and one currency only. And you know, having exposure to different currencies and different asset classes and different jurisdictions, it really mitigates all these risks. It might not be completely avoidable, it might you might still get into a lot of uh you know volatility uh given the uh external factors of again geopolitics being a major force, uh, but at least you're mitigating that risk by having exposure to different to different currencies and asset classes, yes.

Mark Pierce 15:42 I think that's you know, and that's just one factor. Yeah. So that's just one factor. Let alone all the other factors that you've got going on. And I think one of the factors that I see occurring is you know the evolution of this Ukrainian uh war and you know how you've seen a major military power literally brought to his knees and be been rendered ineffectual, meaning Russia, as against the Ukrainians and holding the Ukrainians up saying, look what you can look what you can do with asymmetrical warfare, or the United States that has this massive military, utterly ineffectual in bringing Iran to heel, if that's how you view those things. And you look at that, you say, so what are you spending your money on? You have a $50,000 drone that knocks down a $40 million tomahawk helicopter. How long does that go on? And so you look at the way in which people can enforce their will on others, and I think you've just seen a huge derogation of it. And so you're back to economic will. And how are you going to search your economic will if you're running a deficit the way in which we're running a deficit? So I see a real tilt in the balance in the Middle East, and I see a real tilt in the balance in Europe, although it's not been settled, but I think those are key indications of why you would want to diversify your currency risk. Certainly. In a nutshell.

Maggie Pierce 17:00 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think now it makes sense to get into a bit of how getting a Swiss bank account works with your existing asset protection structure. So if listeners have or are considering a domestic trust in Wyoming or elsewhere, how does a Swiss bank account fit into that picture?

SPEAKER_00 17:18 Absolutely. I think that's a great question, and I think it's very topical uh in the current day and age we live in. So a trust, right? A tr a Wyoming trust is the legal architecture holding the assets. So it doesn't by itself diversify where the underlying assets live. A Wyoming trust gives you an exile asset protection loss, privacy, and flexible administration. But if the trust's assets, the brokerage account, for example, is custodied at a large US bank, all of that legal protection that the Wyoming trust law affords is still riding on top of a single domestic custodian in a single currency. So where does the Swiss bank account come in and how does it help? When you pair a US Wyoming-based asset protection trust with a Swiss bank account, these two are complementary to each other and they're not redundant. So the trust provides the legal structure, who controls the assets, who can reach them, how can they pass to beneficiaries. But the Swiss custody relationship provides the operational diversification, right? So a different banking system, different currency options, different regulatory environment for where the actual dollars and securities sit. So we work with uh BFI uh works with Swiss private banks who serve as the custodians, the banks where the assets are custodied in, while we are the investment managers. Uh, this is an extremely important layer underneath the structures that attorneys like yours build. Uh we're not trying to replace what a Wyoming trust does, but rather we're extending its diversification benefit down to the asset level. And that's how the Swiss bank account complements the Wyoming trust structure.

Mark Pierce 19:19 And I I think that's an excellent, excellent explanation of it, Michael. You know, the Wyoming provides the vehicle in the United States. However, you need to be able to diversify those assets. So the question is with you have when you have a trust in Wyoming that you begin to transfer assets into, the question resides under the full faith and credit of the Constitution. Is it a movable asset or is it an immovable asset? So if you have an asset that's domiciled in Wyoming, it's subject to Wyoming law. If you have an LLC that's domiciled in Wyoming but it owns property in Texas, Texas law is going to apply to that property. You cannot domicile that pop property at the Cook Islands and tell a Texas judge that he has no jurisdiction over property he can see out his window or her window, right? End of the day. So you have to be able to diversify beyond what it is that you've been making money. And you have to be able to put those monies, I call it, it's it's your it's your it's your little pot, you know, your your savings bank, and you put that over into a custodial account that's domiciled in Switzerland, Swiss law is going to apply to that that account. Now U.S. reporting obligations apply, and you can get, you know, you have to report it. But it doesn't mean that if a creditor comes in and tries to attach it, you have to give it to them. So I think that's the beauty that you have there. So Wyoming has a separate set of laws domiciling judgments that come from a foreign, foreign, uh, foreign jurisdiction. And that's what people need to know is that you cannot domicile real estate in Wyoming that exists in California, Texas, Florida, or wherever, but you can domicile money in stocks and currencies.

SPEAKER_00 20:50 Yes, absolutely.

Maggie Pierce 20:54 Um, so does moving assets to Switzerland change anything with people's reporting, audit risk, taxes, anything like that? I think some people might think that this type of diversification might complicate their situation. So I'm wondering if it's how simple it is to set this up and maintain it.

SPEAKER_00 21:14 Yeah, uh, that's a that's a question I get all the time. So having the Swiss account does add extra reporting. Now, again, I think I mentioned it earlier, but I think it's worth reiterate that it does not add secrecy, nor does it reduce your tax bill. But it does uh but and that's important to to note, of course. But you do have extra reporting requirements. So one, uh, and I'll just uh name a few for as an example. One is the foreign bank account report, uh, the F bar, or also known as FinCEN 114, which is uh a report on the balances of each account that you have outside of the United States, as soon as the threshold reaches 10,000 US dollars in aggregate. In addition, you also have um form 89. Which is under FATCA, and depending on the again your individual thresholds, you might be filing for that as well. So the Swiss bank is independently reporting the same account information to the IRS under the you know the intergovernmental agreements that Switzerland has with the US. So the IRS gets two types of reports, one from the bank and one from you. So when it comes to reporting, these are this is important to note. When it comes to taxes, which is also extremely important and a question I get all the time: a Swiss account doesn't change your tax liability, right? US persons are taxed on worldwide income regardless of where that income is earned or held. So there's no tax deferral or reduction from a geography of the account itself. It's a tax neutral solution, basically. You would not change your tax liability whether you hold the assets in a Swiss account or in the US. However, there are certain things that need to be kept in mind, specifically when it comes to the investments. They are, for example, if a client invests in Swiss investments, investment structures like Swiss funds, they are PFIC rules, the passive foreign investment company, which are punitive. And if not handled correctly, they can result in very high tax uh burdens. But what we do, and what our job is, is to create portfolios that are mindful of that. So we have PFIC safe structures and US compliant investments so that you and our clients are not getting the punitive tax uh consequences.

Mark Pierce 23:39 Your point's exactly right. You've got to file a tax return, it's got to be right. And I have a lot of clients that come to me that say, you know, I want to reduce my taxes. And my response is, you don't want to reduce your taxes, you want to structure your environment, get the get the tax rate that's most beneficial to you. That's that's the way to think about this thing, is that a lot of people come in having had their estate structured by somebody who knows nothing about tax. And I said, you know, I was a CPA. I spent a lot of time getting that CPA certificate. That was in 1979. And I tell a lot of these guys that have been in the tax code, I can give you the history of this stuff. I've got I've got ballpoint pen, I've got pencils in my in my canister over here that are older than most people who are purportedly uh practicing trust and tax law. But your characterization is exactly right because your money's safer. It's it's not going to be subject to this depression of value over a period of time. So well said.

Maggie Pierce 24:37 So uh we were talking a little bit about the comparison between US and Swiss banks. What's the minimum to open an account with a Swiss bank and what do you get at that level compared to a US bank?

SPEAKER_00 24:51 So the minimum to open an account is again, it it's it's subjective because it depends on uh the client, really. If we're talking about a young entrepreneur who is you know in the process of building a very successful business, but it's at the very early stages, and you know, it it and there is a very promising future ahead of him or her, uh, you know, the minimum could be flexible. But I'd like to say typically, uh, to start with a bank account uh in Switzerland, you would require at least of one million dollars uh of liquid assets. So that would be, I would say, the minimum. And again, depending on the institution, certain banks have uh minimal thresholds of two million, three million, depending on on the on the on the structure the client is using, depending on many other things. If if the account, for example, is being funded with an existing portfolio, right? So if if there is a transfer in kind from the United States into a Swiss account, which is possible. So if you have a portfolio in the US and you don't want to sell everything immediately and realize a massive tax uh bill for that year, you can transfer the portfolio, and that could be done over a long period of time, in order to be conscious of the of the of the uh capital gains. Uh but uh what you get uh with let's say a million dollar deposit in a Swiss account is a lot more than what you would get, for example, with any other private bank or any bank in the United States. So we we provide genuinely boutique wealth management approach. So we roll out the red carpet to our clients. Uh we have dedicated advisors for each of our clients or a team of advisors, so every time a client calls, and they can always call and reach out, and they'll speak to the same person or the same two people that they know their situation, that they know their family, that they have met in person in the US or in Switzerland. So there is a huge attention to your individual situation, and we provide tailored solutions designed specifically uh for you. Um what else? I mean, truly global investment mandates is what we offer rather than US-centric one or and multi-currency accounts are actually default rather than an add-on. Uh so aside from the relationship with a banker or the investment advisor uh that you're speaking with, uh, you have a truly boutique approach to to your individual needs. When we're talking about lending facilities, uh also known as Lombard loans here in Switzerland against the assets under management in the specific bank, we can advise as to you know uh the appropriate um you know structure, facility, uh, etc. So it's really what our expertise uh brings to the table uh is typically more long-term capital preservation minus philosophy rather than just uh you know what you would find in the US, typically uh just a US wirehouse, uh so to speak.

Mark Pierce 27:53 I think you made a very interesting point there that I would ask you to elaborate somewhat. I know that here in the United States, when we're putting into a bank relationship and something goes on with our account, we call for an explanation or something, you can't get a hold of anybody, you end up with a bot, and then you end up on hold, and then you're dealing with someone who could not may not even be from the United States and doesn't speak English all that well, trying to communicate what a problem is and get it resolved. So I'm curious as to the individual who is your liaison for your account, or the team that's at liaison for your account, what are the qualities of the individual that's uh being put into place on your end of the transaction?

SPEAKER_00 28:32 Typically, our team of uh the employees who work with us are, you know, they were brought up in Switzerland, they they are very accustomed to the Swiss private banking traditions and norms that are observed here. Again, very difficult, they're very different uh than what you see elsewhere in the world. And of course, the fact that you have access to those individuals. And every time you call is the same person, the same two people who already know you and you've already met with them, or the video, or in fact, in person when you visit our offices here in Zurich or when uh your advisor travels to the US. So you establish this personal relationship uh with your advisors because everything that we do here in Switzerland bears in mind a long, long-term uh business relationship, right? That's how the private banks work here. Private banks that have been around for hundreds of years that have passed the operations of the bank from one generation to the next. So everything we do here is really in terms of preserving and protecting your wealth and legacy for the future.

Maggie Pierce 29:42 So, talking a little bit more about what it looks like to get started, can you walk us through the onboarding process, any details you think are relevant and how long it takes?

SPEAKER_00 29:52 Sure. Uh it's a it's a time consuming process, I am not gonna lie. Uh it's more paperwork intensive for sure than opening a US brokerage account. But that's largely because of you know FATCA and uh anti-money laundering uh compliance rules on uh the side of the investment manager, but also the custodial bank. Um, you know, clients should expect source of wealth uh documentation, identity verification, tax residency certifications, compliance review by the bank and the asset manager as well. But those are, again, this is a standard practice for us, very different than what it's accustomed to in the United States. But it's a small price to pay for the benefits uh that you get as a as as for with a US uh with a Swiss bank account. You do have to go through these uh you know administrative tasks and sign all the documents and you know and go through the uh verification process. And it typically takes between four to six weeks to open an account in Switzerland and be ready uh to to fund it. But again, all that is done to protect the individual, uh to make sure that we are familiar with uh each individual's background so we know exactly what they're uh they're looking to achieve, what the focus of this uh bank account here is, so we can be uh providing the service that they really need.

SPEAKER_03 31:18 And then once people are set up, what does it typically cost to maintain the account?

Maggie Pierce 31:23 And can you walk us through a bit of the day-to-day process of the account? Yeah, or year-to-year.

SPEAKER_00 31:30 Sure. So uh what the the the fees associated with the account are uh the investment management fee that we charge, and that varies on uh assets under management uh thresholds. So the higher the assets under management are, the lower the fee is. So it's a progressive uh fee schedule. And also the second fee that the client pays is to the custodial bank. Again, these banks, these private banks we work with, and we work with around 10, 12 private banks in Switzerland and Liechtenstein, these banks are not investment banks, they're not uh the day-to-day uh commercial banks as uh one would expect to see elsewhere. These are private institutions uh designed and specifically for the custody, the safe custody of assets. So they don't leverage your accounts, your assets are held in a segregated account off balance sheet. So, in order for them to cover their overhead costs, obviously, they charge you a fee. The fees vary between 0.2 to 0.4% per year, depending on the bank, of course. But that's that's the cost of being at a Swiss private bank or a Liechtenstein private bank. And again, our fees uh are progressive, uh, depending on the assets being funded in the account, but on a $1 million account, you're looking at around 1.2% uh annual fee.

Mark Pierce 32:52 Would you say that that's uh pretty much within what you're paying here in the United States for asset management fees as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 33:00 It's uh within the same range. The only difference that I hear from clients uh who have now been clients of of ours for a few years is that we're extremely transparent when it comes to fees. So we tell them at the very beginning of the relationship this is what you pay on your account, this is how much the bank will charge, and this is how much we will charge. There are no additional fees, there are no hidden costs, there's nothing else that you pay on top of what we tell you. On first look in the US at different banks, you may think you're getting a better deal because let's say their fees will be 0.5%, but then you have trading fees, ticket fees, and other fees that are not really disclosed or presented transparently at the very beginning. So you end up paying more at the end of the day from again, these are these are things that uh a lot of my clients have been telling me.

SPEAKER_03 33:55 Interesting.

Maggie Pierce 33:56 So I think we've pretty much covered everything about at least the basics of the account. Is there anything you feel like we haven't gone over that you'd like to share with listeners about Swiss banking?

SPEAKER_00 34:09 Um yeah, I mean I guess I just want to kind of give a give an idea of what a good fit someone would be for a Swiss private banking and who shouldn't really look for that option. So a good fit is someone who uh again has at least a million dollars of liquid assets, who's willing to go through the proper US tax compliance uh and documentation that we go through, and who's really motivated by the genuine diversification, currency jurisdiction, custodial concentration rather than by the you know by the fantasy of secrecy and other and or or or anything else uh in that matter. So someone who's really looking to protect their wealth, to to protect their legacy for the future, and wants to be diversified from again uh different asset class or jurisdiction or currency standpoints, these are these are the type of clients that we like to work with. People who are looking for secrecy or any type of hiding assets or moving assets for one day to the next just so they can defraud creditors or you know not pay their uh you know their creditor. That's not that those are not the clients that we're looking for.

Maggie Pierce 35:19 Seems pretty in line with uh what we've spoken about on this podcast so far. This is planning not reacting to things similar to how it takes four to six weeks to set up, it's because it's a long-term strategy instead of just something you do to try to get away with something.

SPEAKER_00 35:35 Absolutely.

Mark Pierce 35:36 I think it's you've made a very interesting point there, Michael. In the United States, there's approximately five percent of the individuals who pass away have an estate plan put together. And so they just throw their family into this melee of things that need to be done. And if you sit down and take some time to do this, you can get all the help in the world and put together a very successful estate plan, including the financial uh allocation of assets as well. And it, you know, it you know, I I know that people say, you know, it seems kind of exotic to go to Switzerland to do these things. It's a laborious process, but once you get it into place, it's done. So that when you pass away and your kids show up, the Swiss aren't gonna say, Oh my goodness, we don't know who you are. You need a court order. They know who you are. And things transition easily.

SPEAKER_00 36:25 Absolutely.

Mark Pierce 36:26 That's what we're after here. You want to put the work in now. You don't want to dump it on your family to pick it up. And you also want to preserve your state. And I see so many people who have gotten out of their businesses, you know, they make five, ten million dollars, a lot of money. And, you know, the drain on that money over the next several years is kind of amazing. It just seems to disappear. And so you've got to get a good rate of return. You have to be you have to treat this as a piggy bank, and you have to manage it for manage it for the benefit of the entirety of the family. And I think that's a mindset here in the United States that some people have gotten. But I think that a majority of the people, far, far greater majority of the people, regard this as being something that's kind of esoteric and not really within the can of what they should be doing. And yet things have changed. And so you've got to change with them. And I think that this offers an incredible opportunity. I think, particularly given the stability, stability of the Swiss currency and the and the and the price of maintaining that at 1.2% a year, is what you're paying here in the United States with the deflation of the dollar. So, you know, my view is why are you not in this thing? If you're worth if you're worth several million dollars, why do you not have a portion of your assets diversified currency-wise? It seems like a fool's errand if you don't.

SPEAKER_00 37:39 Absolutely. No, I think uh Swiss banking should be part of uh everyone's estate plan uh because of really the benefits that it brings and how it complements a Wyoming trust, for example, because it it really does. And and this is not to say to move all your money to Switzerland. This is to say that you can build your your legacy over a long period of time with a proper relationship where you can be sure that you know your your kids will be protected, your wife, your spouse, uh, in the future when you're not around. So I I think that it certainly should be considered. Now it may not make sense for a lot of people, but um, but it's not the again, as I mentioned in the very beginning, it's not for the ultra-rich only, or for people who are trying to uh uh create this uh James Bond type of lifestyle. James Bond.

Mark Pierce 38:38 I think that's exactly right. I for my era, that's what you think about Swiss banking. Oh my goodness, you know. So it's it's beyond that. The world's moved beyond that.

SPEAKER_03 38:51 Okay, I think that's a good place to end it, unless you have any final thoughts.

Mark Pierce 38:55 Well, I'll tell you what, I think we need to take a look at people who view this stuff. And do they have ways in which they can reach out to Michael or ways in which they can shoot us some emails that Michael might be able to answer? Because I I think that they may have some additional questions and some follow-on questions that would go with this. And I I think when they when they take it's a very real concern here of people that I speak with is this loss of value of the American dollar and the equivalency to the to the Swiss franc versus like say the Mexican peso dollars. Mexican peso is doing quite well. We on the other hand.

SPEAKER_00 39:31 No, and I think that we we left a lot of things uh uh undiscussed, and I think it it it might be worth doing another podcast and kind of have a deeper dive into, you know, I'd like to bring up some graphs about the exact about the US dollar devaluation, but uh devaluation dollar graphs, we can talk about the US versus European equities and indices, you know, uh you know, European indices obviously trading at a lower price to earning ratios, etc. So we can kind of have a deeper dive into that, and also other services that we can, not just the bank account, uh, but also precious metals and you know family office services out of Switzerland, data privacy focused also facts, such as the fact that we keep all that data here in Switzerland on Swiss servers. There's never a transmission of data outside of the Swiss borders. So I think that's very important in encryption, etc. So I think it's a good starting point so we can have at least a couple of more episodes.

Maggie Pierce 40:28 Yeah. If that's actually do a part two.

Mark Pierce 40:31 Yeah, this is a part two. I I agree with you. That'd be great. If you if you could rough something out for us, Michael, that'd be fantastic and get m Maggie to look at that and we can do another one of these. Yeah.

Maggie Pierce 40:42 Thank you for listening to keep what you've built. If you're interested in speaking with Michael, please email hello at WyomingTrustAttorney.com and we will connect you with him. If you're interested in speaking with Mark, you can schedule a meeting with him through the link in the show notes or by visiting WyomingTrustAttorney.com. If you've enjoyed the show, please rate it five stars or give us a like. We'll see you next time.